It's the same in any lingo

בַּת-בָּבֶל, הַשְּׁדוּדָה: אַשְׁרֵי שֶׁיְשַׁלֶּם-לָךְ-- אֶת-גְּמוּלֵךְ, שֶׁגָּמַלְתּ לָנוּ
אַשְׁרֵי שֶׁיֹּאחֵז וְנִפֵּץ אֶת-עֹלָלַיִךְ-- אֶל-הַסָּלַע


How can one be compelled to accept slavery? I simply refuse to do the master's bidding. He may torture me, break my bones to atoms and even kill me. He will then have my dead body, not my obedience. Ultimately, therefore, it is I who am the victor and not he, for he has failed in getting me to do what he wanted done. ~ Mahatma Gandhi
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? If not now, when? ~ Rav Hillel, Pirke Avot

This Red Sea Pedestrian Stands against Judeophobes

This Red Sea Pedestrian Stands against Judeophobes
Wear It With Pride

05 January 2009

More Selective Editing from LJ (UPDATE 2)

Update 2:  At the 51 second point in the IDF video, hit pause.  In the lower left corner you will see what appears to be 6 objects that seem to be the same shape and dimension as the objects being loaded into the truck.  Watching that a few times it could be the roof of a building.  If those object are on the roof it could be a coincidence that they are the same dimension, or they could be rockets hidden on the roof so that civilians wouldn't see them. They could be something else.  It's hard to say from the video.  If I were on a jury trying the Israeli pilot on a war crimes charge, and the only evidence I had was that video, and the testimony of Ahmad Samur, I would have to vote not guilty.  We have not been to the scene, we have no way of knowing whether the scene was tampered with, only Samur's testimony that it was not (we have already established that scenes can be created for the camera as was done with Al-Dura).  Is there a reasonable doubt as to whether those objects on the truck were rockets or not?  One thing I can conclude from the video: there were more than four "canisters" on multiple trucks.  Samur's testimony is already incorrect less than a minute into the IDF video.  Perhaps only four "canisters" were being loaded into that specific truck.  But there were far more on the others.  Again, there is not enough information available to draw a conclusion that should be presented by Al Jazeera, or Larry Johnson, as fact.

Update 1: Since posting this I have gotten the full video from the IDF's Youtube channel.  The man in the Al Jazeera video said they took 50 small pieces of iron, some welding equipment, 4 gas canisters, 2 gallons diesel, 2 gallons of gasoline.  How many trucks does it take to haul that stuff?  There were 4 at the scene.  One drove away loaded with what appears to objects of the same dimension as the "canisters" being loaded onto the truck.  One looks loaded to me, and appears to be leaving while another was being loaded.  How many men does it take to load the above list of materials?   Watch both videos.  I think Ahmad Samur is full of shit, and possibly was not even at the scene.  That explosion is pretty big.  Everyone around that truck would have been dead, or seriously burned.  Mr. Samur looks pretty unscathed to me.  Like I said, one cannot conclude anything from that Al Jazeera story.  But Larry Johnson sure did.


This is how the No Quarter coverage of Gaza is going to look.

Larry Johnson has placed the following Al Jazeera video on No Quarter.





Then presents the following:
As the Israeli human rights analyst correctly notes, if these men were actually loading missiles with high explosives the truck would have disappeared. So ask yourself one question–if you were out loading your truck with gas canisters to use in your home because you cannot rely on public services and someone dropped a bomb and killed your son, would you be pissed? I suspect the answer is yes.
What Johnson selectively leaves out is that the human rights worker clearly states that the military analyst said that the truck would have disappeared had the rockets been prepared to be launched.  A formal investigation has not taken place as to the purpose of the tubes; for rockets, or civilian purposes.  A welding gas canister has a rounded end.  See if you notice round end with a valve system on those objects.

This is a picture of a truck fitted with a grad rocket launcher.  What's that on the back of the truck, gas canisters?  Funny, if I didn't know any better I'd say those launch tubes are very similar in dimension to the "canisters" in the video.




This is a photo of a fully assembled grad rocket (there are a few types in different lengths, some shorter than this).


If you watch the video it is clear the tubes being carried by the men by the truck are not fitted with an explosive head, as seen here.  I think we can be certain that the tubes in the video do not represent fully assembled grad rockets.  So let's rule now that the men in the video were not loading armed rockets into the truck just for shits and giggles.

Is it possible that the tubes were disassembled grad rockets, to be fitted with their explosives, and propulsion systems?  Yes.  Is it possible that these were civilians and the tubes were for non-violent purpose?  Yes. But Johnson selectively edits for his audience.  I think I will wait until the full investigation is completed, and the report filed, before I pass judgement.  Johnson fails to possess the integrity to do the same.  He couches his presentation as demonstrating the PR problem Israel will face as a result of the Gaza invasion (something that will happen regardless of whether a single civilian dies or not).  But what he's really doing is manipulating his audience into believing that Israel wrongly killed those people in the video to inflame them.

And it looks like I'm not the only one who is trying to figure out what is truth and what is fiction.

I will not go on with this exercise much longer as I think anyone with a brain by now realizes that Johnson has an axe to grind with Israel, and that journalistic integrity and objectivity are out the window.  

If a formal investigation into this incident is undertaken with the cooperation of B'tselem and concludes that these were civilians that were hit, that the intelligence was wrong, and Israel is at fault, then I expect the people responsible to be punished.  If it turns out that these were Hamas operatives I would hope Johnson would state as much at No Quarter.  Monkeys will fly out of my butt first I would imagine.

My point is that there really no one to trust in all of this.  There is no source of information I consider credible in its details.  Larry Johnson is being very clever, but he's not fooling anyone, except perhaps himself., and those of his readers that are too dimwitted to pay attention to detail, or form their own opinions.

Here's what we know.  

  • Hamas broke the ceasefire.  
  • Hamas was firing rockets during the ceasefire.  
  • Hamas refused to renew the ceasefire.  Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority warned Hamas that Israel would take strong military action. 
  •  Israel was gathering intelligence on Hamas positions during the ceasefire (if you're against Israel you will conclude that it was planning this operation and planned to carry it out regardless of the ceasefire status, as many No Quarter readers are concluding, and if you support Israel, or you have any common sense, you will conclude that Israel was gathering this intelligence in the event that the ceasefire was not renewed by Hamas and action needed to be taken; of course it is possible that Hamas and Israel are in cahoots for a reason someone else can present to me...with Fatah out of the way I find it hard to believe how this benefits Israel though there can always be heavy duty black ops shit happening; it is also possible that this is all being orchestrated by the ghost of Christmas Past). 
  • Israel has been bombing targets in Gaza for eight days.
  • Israel has launched a ground invasion with the stated purpose of taking control of areas where rocket launches are being staged.
  • Humanitarian aid has been flowing into Gaza, tonnage being flown in by the Red Cross and other nations into Israel, and convoys were coming in prior to and during the operations.
  • We know that distribution of aid is difficult because of the military operations.
That is the only thing any of us can be certain about.  We cannot be certain how many have died.  We cannot be certain how many are Hamas operatives and how many are civilians.  We do not know a lot of things.  Instead of presenting questions as facts we should all be praying that this ends as quickly as possible, with the lowest death toll possible, and when this bullshit is over the rockets never again fall on Israel or Gaza.  Tall order I know, but what the hell?  It doesn't hurt to ask.

22 comments:

swanspirit said...

Hey Shtuey .. I am so glad you posted this .. I read ths stuff at NoQuarter.. and it made me almost ill .
Let me tell you a little story from my early nursing days . I was working at Johns Hopkins Hospital doing private duty for the Minister of Communications
of a Middle Eastern country ,who was quite ill.
His son Hateem stayed with him and while his father slept we sat on the window seat and looked out over the Innner Harbor, and chatted casually. He looked at my blonde hair and blue eyes and told me point blank on the topic of Israel ... he stated "Dont you worry ...in five years there will
BE NO ISRAEL and no jews over the world either" This was in 1981. How was he to know my father was Jewish? He didnt ask ,he just assumed , and I certainly wasn't going to tell him while I was working . I have never ever forgotten that casual reassurance of genocide .

Shtuey said...

Sadly, children around the world are raised to hate others, instead of being raised to learn compassion.

navyvet48 said...

I promised youthat Larry Johnson's posts would lose him readers....it is already beginning. I wrote a post just for you. I monce no words....I called Johnson an anti-semite.

http://msplaceddemocrat.com/http:/msplaceddemocrat.com/larry-johnson-no-quarter-and-censorship/

I stand by my friends. I stand against those who choose to censor people's comments. No Quarter is claiming that Larry is having to go through comments that have landed in spam....saying it is all accidental. Bullshit!

navyvet48 said...

I saw Susan's post about the spam filter....I thought it was full of holes and hot air. No Quarter reacted in that manner because they have been getting tons of negative press on their posts.

That is the whole reason I needed to post the e-mails I read on a list I belong to. People are very unhappy with his coverage.

Shtuey said...

It's not that Larry is being critical of Israel. I'm critical of Israel. But what's going on at NQ is, in part, a campaign of disinformation. Those are very different things. We get enough of that from the players. We don't need more.

navyvet48 said...

It isn't me that thinks Larry is being critical of Israel, it is others. The posts are just too much for people's senses I think. I know the Israel government is in chaos. There were a few articles on the mess in the fall last year. I can't remember what I read but I did read some negative press.

I thought you were trying to at least take the side of Israel somewhat.

I will disagree, Larry is critical of Israel, of this there is no doubt. At least in my eyes and others.

What did your comment say?

swanspirit said...

Anytime anyone tells ONE Side of the story their objectivity is questionable and no quarter regarding the reporting he is doing is decidedly one sided , and not accurate
.. of course the jewish suicide bombers should be mentioned oh WAIT
THERE ARE NO JEWISH SUICIDE BOMBERS !!!

Maggie M. Thornton said...

Well said.

Maggie @ Maggies Notebook

Shtuey said...

Navy, I think you might have misunderstood me. My problem with larry is not that he is being critical of Israel. It's his blatant obscuring and withholding of facts, and tailoring information to suit his biased POV. I fully support Israel's right under international law to protect her citizens from Hamas military action. I hope this operation brings it to an end permanently, and when it is over Hamas is removed from the stage and a body politic in Gaza and the West Bank that no longer holds destroying Israel as its raison d'etre, is fostered by the world community. Monkeys will fly out of my butt before that happens I suspect.

The loss of life is regrettable. But what the American Left and the world community fails to understand is that it is just as unacceptable for Israeli children to have to spend their lives running to bomb shelters every time Hamas fires rockets, as it is for Palestinian children to live in fear of both Hamas guns, and Israeli bombs during actions like this. But the world community did not step in to stop the Hamas rockets did they? Nope. So the inescapable fact is that the world community also has blood on its hands.

Thank you for standing by me though this ordeal. It's very fashionable to people to take the side of Hamas. Of course when this is all over they'll go back to stuffing their faces with cookies, and find the new cause of the week. It's the rest of us that actually give a fuck about what happens there that will be the ones that keep trying to build bridges, urge the Israeli government to reform, and urge the world community to foster legitimate Palestinian political bodies.

navyvet48 said...

I am critical of Israel and their government. It has been so chaotic for years. I however would never post it the way you have because I can't possibly understand your connection to Israel. While I know some history my knowledge of Israeli history may be based on some sort of romantic notion and the memories of two visits more than 20 years. You are right I did misunderstand your argument with Larry. You are correct. I get it now. Larry isn't telling both sides of the story.... Not an excuse but I have been in brain fog off and on over the last couple of days or so! Thank you for elaborating. Love you! I will continue to stand with you my friend. And I won't forget. I fight the fights worth fighting.

DB said...

Journalistic integrity out the window?! No!!!!

Joseph Cannon has endorsed No Quarter's take on this war, so that should say something. I've just had an interesting encounter with Cannon on his blog. Cannon linked to the article by Mustafa Barghouthi and quotes freely from it - without any caveats. When I responded he called me "disgusting" for defending Jews (whom he assailed as being at fault), and then went on to reprint the talking points of Hamas, Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad, Al Qaeda, etc., that Israel has no right to exist, is barbaric, etc. Not a word in his original post or his response to me about anything that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority might have done wrong. Cannon's grinding axe (which appears to be with Jews, because that's all he talks about) seems to be bigger than Larry's.

For the record I think Israel's response is too much and misguided (just as the siege of Ramallah was and the attacks on Lebannon were), but to blame "the Jews" for all of the Middle East's problems is preposterous and, yes, anti-Semitic.

Shtuey said...

DB; I looked up the word idiot in the dictionary, and there was a picture of Joseph Cannon.

Lebanon was ridiculous, and poorly conducted, which I lay squarely on Ehud Olmert and his civilian Minister of Defense at the time, Amir Peretz. This is what happens when you put a farmer, and not a career military man, in that position. This is why Ehud Barak holds the position now, and why it appears this operation is working, for now.

I have not really seen a discussion as to what the appropriate response would have been. Firing on crews in the act of launching rockets was attempted an brought little result. Often times rockets and mortars are launched from schools and hospitals. There is IDF video of a mortar launch from a school which Israel did not fire on because of the obvious loss of civilian life that would occur.

They could have gone in with tanks and seized control of the areas where rockets are being launched from, but then the stockpiles would remain, and would be used later, as has been the case before.

All that being true, what is an appropriate response to protect one's cities and towns that have been rocketed consistently, with little objection from the international community (keep in mind there was no response by the UN on Israel's filed complaints leading up to this current operation) for seven years? What would you expect your government to do if your town was being rocketed for seven years, and for that period of time you had 15 seconds to run for cover?

I'm not trying to be snarky. I just want you to be able to develop an answer as to what Israel should do in this situation with a sense of what the circumstances are.

I think, if the death toll we are receiving (which is not coming from Israel, but from Palestinian and international bodies) is correct, then we can certainly say that Israel is not indiscriminately killing civilians. That's not to say that 500 dead is okay. But it is better than 20-30 thousand, which it would no doubt be if Israel was not being as careful as possible, and just wanted to kill people.

Unlike Lebanon 2006, Israel appears to be concentrating its fire power as best as possible on Hamas targets, though civilian infrastructure has been damaged.

I am reserving judgement on whether the response is too heavy and/or misguided until it is over and we see the results. If it ends with Israeli towns free of rocket fire, and Israel can keep its guns silent as well then it will not have been misguided.

The international community could have, at any time over the last seven years, stopped Hamas. It either lacked the will, or the ability to do so. Now it's all this.

Shtuey said...

Navy; it's not just that there is no representation of the Israeli point of view, it's that he is withholding information within what he is presenting as well in order to shape the opinions of his readers.

In a conflict where the truth is often hidden, or just flat out made up, like Al-Dura, more disinformation is counterproductive. And when it stirs up feelings of hate, which is clearly happening at No Quarter, and elsewhere, it is dangerous.

navyvet48 said...

I am not sure what I saw in the lower left hand corner but they were of equal size. I watched the video more than once...interesting!

Mirlo said...

I have been commenting and writing in European blogs and Facebook etc. I seem to be the only one not blaming it all on the Isrealis. I think and hope I got a few people to reconsider their position. I was especially critical with an influential national politician in Spain, because his party was using inflammatory language and he did agree with me that it was inapropriate and harmful. So it is important to keep at it, use facts and keep the language civil.

As to the comments on NQ, frankly, most of those are just too dumb and boring to deal with.

Each one of the blogs will attract the corresponding readers; isn't it mostly our disapointments when we find out we have erred in evaluating someone that stirres our anger?

Anyway, I want to thank you, Shtuey for the valuable information on this site, which I deem very useful, which gives me somewhat of an oversight (at least as far as possible) and helps me calibrate facts and feelings. It is an acomplishment to be able to look at this conflict on different levels and not fall into the trap of creating a scapegoat for oneself.

Shtuey said...

Mirlo, I appreciate your comments, and your readership very much. It comes as no surprise to read what you have reported. People here in America are putting on kafias and burqas and protesting against Israeli aggression. I don't recall anyone protesting against the thousands of rockets falling on Israel.

People can say what they want, but they betray themselves when they protest violence against one party, and find it acceptable against another.

I certainly am not cheerleading while the IDF carries out its operations. There's nothing to get excited about when people die. But I do hope that if people are going to die that this ends with a permanent end to the killing by both sides. If people want a resolution to this, it is going to have to begin with an end of the violence. The world is going to have to tell Hamas in no uncertain terms that it will not accept a political body that advocates the extermination of anyone.

Again, thank you for being here, and for your comments. We are glad to have you here.

Maggie M. Thornton said...

First, I'm a new commenter here, and I'm following the thread.

I'm not Jewish. I blame Israel for very little, if anything. I don't mind being a cheerleader for a cause that I see as righteous, under the circumstances - and a cause that will eventually effect the entire free world.

It is a terrible thing that people are dying on either side of border, but the enemy here has a mission and that is to put an end to Israel. That's the bottom line. The other bottom line is that those killed in this war, if the war accomplishes all that Israel says it is attempting to accomplish, will in the end, save future lives.

I appreciate the fact that the IDF is strong and are masters at what they do. That will minimize deaths.

I often blog about Israel. There are many bloggers on the side of Israel. We just do not have a voice in the media.

Israel must ignore the media and world opinion. Their survival is at stake, and I believe they have far more support than we think.

Everything is different in the Middle East since 9/11. Israel must show the world that this free country will not be done away with.

I believe if Israel does the job right they will have more support from other free countries. The free world cannot handle another Lebanon. Too much is at stake.

Forget the U.N., it's actually shameful these days when the U.N. supports you, because they are always on the side of appeasement of evil.

The issue isn't that Israel win this, but that they win it right and completely. I pray that they do.

The Arab world's constitutions and charters calling for the demise of Israel is inhuman and obscene. Knowing the official stance of these people, there is nothing Israel can do that would be as terrible as wishing the death of an entire people.

Too much of the world sees Palestine as a naughty, poor child that needs to be looked after...a bully that needs to be tempered. In truth, they are cold blood killers. The proof is in their charters and constitutions, and not in what they say. It's a lesson world leaders need to accept.

This is a good and important discussion here and I thank you for giving me a place to rant.

Maggie @ Maggie's Notebook

DB said...

shtuey> If I could figure out what the right solution is for the Middle East - I'd be a very rich man, with multiple peace prizes.

Shtuey said...

Maggie, thanks for coming, and for adding to the conversation. If there's anywhere that ranting is welcome, it's at OMV.

DB; I know what you mean. Personally, I think the musicians over there ought to make the peace. They're already playing together, and have been for years.

Mirlo said...

What is happening here, IMO, is a very common psychological phenomenon:
"victim identification".

To ease one's impotence while witnessing a severe and complex conflict, being pained by human suffering, people who have not learned to recognize their own emotional re-action, who have not acquired the strength to bear with conflict and suffering that has no immediate resolve, will appease themselves by identifying with the victim. Others will identify with the stronger side (as young or week victims very often do with their own culprit). It is no wonder that the left in general identifies with the victim, it's in their "genes", so to speak.

Knowing oneself, acquiring social and emotional competence and the strength to not get drenched in one's own emotions, but induce clear reasoning while acknowledging the emotional pain and bear with it, is the only answer to such seemingly righteous, but might I say, immature reactions.

Mirlo said...

And that is why getting unbiased information and education is so very important. That is how we can learn to handle emotionally complex issues without taking easy shortcuts, which is what also lays behind the sole condemnation of one side in a conflict.
That is why I am so enthusiastic about Heidi Li's idea on how to confront modern day misogyny with 51 percent: learn about the facts, learn from history and thinkers, seek intellectual stimulation, think and feel how your emotions shape while becoming more knowledgable, while giving earnest thought to a topic.
nuff said!

Shtuey said...

Mirlo, very interesting analysis. I find it sad that over and over the American Left embraces causes as black and white. Someone is always right. Someone is always wrong, and most times these choices are made with little self education, just reaction to a talking head, or talking point. And once the crisis has faded from the front pages, they move on to the next cause.

Heidi has definitely latched onto something that I think will make a real difference in societal awareness of misogyny, and will highlight how far we have to go to reach a just and equitable society.